We're gonna talk now to Dame Rachel
Duza. You can see he's joined me here.
She's the children's commissioner. Very
good morning
>> uh to you and and you've been doing your
own research as well which is released
today. Rather than looking so much at
self harm, it's looking more at porn and
how that reaches young children.
>> Absolutely. So when I came into RO uh
when the online safety bill was going
through, it's now the online safety act.
We did a major nally representative
piece of work looking at when children
first saw porn, what they were seeing,
what age they were. We've repeated that
as a line in the sand for the online
safety act and I'm afraid it's really
bad. There are more children seeing porn
at an earlier age and the things they
are seeing as having a great effect on
them. So about um you know about 50% of
children see porn by the age of 13 14.
They see it online. Quarter of children
see it um at the age of 11. And we even
had six-year-olds. And I'm not talking
about um just like you know a natural
inquisitive seeing something about sex.
I'm talking about coercive coercive sex
strangulation really horrible things
that those little minds um can't cope
with. And I think that's what parents
are really really worried about. So it's
important work.
>> So So I I'm really interested. So this
is saying it's gotten worse. Yeah.
>> Since the online safety act, but but I
think we need to clarify this. This is
since it passed, not since it came into
effect.
>> Exactly. Right. So the online look the
online safety act was passed two years
ago. Um and literally a couple of weeks
ago um it beca we got the children's
code came into law. So it's really
important that we did this baseline
because in a year's time I'm going to do
it again and I want to see the children
been better protected otherwise it's not
working. We've got to get behind it and
make it work. And do you know where
children are seeing porn? Do you know
where they're picking up? you would
parents would be really surprised that
they tell us they mainly see it on
Twitter more so than on you know their
sort of porn sites. They're seeing it on
somewhere that parents would think was
quite innocent for them to be on and the
algorithms then start working.
>> So so I just want to p because obviously
as you said it's only come into effect a
couple of weeks ago.
>> Couple weeks ago. Yeah.
>> So So if this was carried out over the
last two weeks as opposed to the prior
year, do you think it would have seen
the results of your survey drastically
improve?
>> No. So what what what I think we've seen
is um lots of lots of um traffic that
were on porn sites move to VPNs. Uh so
that's individuals having their own, you
know, getting their own individual site.
Now that's not where children are seeing
porn. Um children are seeing it on
social media sites. I surveyed every
headteer in this country, asked them
what their biggest worries were. The
second biggest worry of every headteer
in this country is what children are
seeing on social media. Um, and those so
I pull those social media companies in
to see me and challenge them and I'm
really cross with them because they left
protecting children from this until, you
know, they only started this at the very
last, you know, a couple weeks ago.
They've had years to sort stop to pull
this stuff down and protect children and
they're just not doing enough. And I
need this bill to have teeth to protect
children.
>> So, so I was going to come to that. I
mean, you're saying, you know, you're
really cross with them.
>> Yeah.
>> I I doubt uh as as fierce as I'm sure
you can be that leads them to change
their behavior. So So what
>> powers have you got and what powers do
you need?
>> Well, look, the the power is in the
online safety act that is now in force
and and the children's code has been
written. Now, what I need is for that to
to be used. I need offcom to go after
the social media companies if they don't
take this terrible illegal porn. You
cannot offline show the kind of sexual
strangulation, coercive strangulation
that is is online just free for people
to see. So I need the online I need that
I need that bill. I need offcom to back
that bill and for them to do the work of
protecting children. I don't think
there's anybody in this country who
doesn't want our children protected. I
honestly so and we now have this
legislation in place. There are lots of
moans about legislation because this
bill put in all sorts of things about
adults as well. I'm staying away from
that. What I'm concerned about is
six-year-olds seeing violent coercive
porn. We've got to do better. We've got
to protect them.
>> So, should VPNs be restricted in some
way? So, one of one of my
recommendations was um was to to
basically age check VPNs. Most of us,
lots of us use VPN. When I'm abroad,
I'll use a VPN so that I can access my
calendar. Um so, we're you know, there
are very kind of really good reasons to
use a VPN. But if we age check them,
then we would know if that VPN was used
by a child to see porn. The social media
companies, frankly, know when there's a
child online. If we if they got their
bit right, we could focus on these other
bits to to completely eradicate it. But
remember, most children in this country,
the age of 14, the age of 11, the age of
six are seeing their porn on Twitter,
which where it shouldn't be.
>> And porn is is one thing. And um you
know, you've out outlined how serious it
is. You know, self harm and what
happened to Molly Rose is is obviously a
whole another scale. If we see another
instance of that going forward, um,
which obviously we hope we don't, and
and that young person has seen any clip
or guidance of self harm online. I
>> Is that on the social media companies?
Could they, if they so desire, stop that
right now?
>> Yes, they they absolutely, and that's
the conversation I have with them. They
absolutely know what's online. They know
what is harmful to children. They know
what is illegal. They need to get on and
do what what our country now legally
requires them to do. And I'm not saying
this because, you know, I'm saying this
because I listen to Ian Russell and your
heart breaks. The life of a child, you
know, is so precious. The thing as
children's commissioner parents talk to
me about every single day and start to
get frantic about from when their child
turns nine or 10 is what they're seeing
online. Whether it's self harm material,
whether it's addictive porn, and these
are innocent little brains that can be
deeply affected.
>> So why don't they just take it down? I
don't understand if I mean, but we're
talking about self harm.
>> Yep. I I think they I think they don't
care. I think they don't care. I think
they don't see it's their
responsibility. I mean, I challenge them
all the time. Some of them Some of the
social media companies are better than
others in terms of trying to actually
make a good case for what they're doing.
But don't forget, this is a business.
This is that they're making money. Their
algorithms make them money.
>> But do they do they ever claim to you
we're not able to take it down. We're
not able to identify. I mean is that
their
>> only in the case of our workforce isn't
big enough. We need a bigger workforce.
That's it. That's it. But they're making
billions from us. We should be we should
be demanding and our online safety act
now does demand that they do better. And
again the online safety act everybody
gets very antsy about it. I'm sure it's
not perfect, but it's the only thing
we've got to protect children and we
need to use it with its full force to
protect children. I want to see social
media companies been held to account if
anything like this happens again in the
strongest way because our parents and
our our families are crying out for it.
When you see a porn addicted
15-year-old, when you see a parent whose
whose child took their life from seeing
this stuff, your heart breaks. It's not
worth it. We need to hold these
companies to account. They need to do
better.
>> D Rachel Duza, thanks for joining us.
Good to see you.